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Old 22-07-2017, 22:18   #166
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I think everyone needs that kind of slap tbh, and top players are certainly not immune. Here's the thing: simply being really, really good isn't enough in this sport. How many "really, really good" players don't even make it out of the youth league? By far and away the make-it-or-break it aspect with this sport is drive, the will to work above and beyond everyone else to be the best of the best and win it all. It's not just about being the best player, it's also about wanting it more than everyone else. That's what separates winners from losers at the highest level where almost every one the pitch is capable of moments of unbelievable genius and skill.

To illustrate a point: There was very little difference between Bayern in 2011-12 and Bayern in 2012-13. In fact, Bayern in 2012-13 had a harder schedule. The difference in the night-and-day performance of these two seasons had to do with one thing and one thing only: we were the most hungry to win. It's not enough to simply be hungry - you have the be the HUNGRIEST. And the danger is that once you reach that point, you naturally become complacent. It's a big part of why we've never seen a back-to-back CL winner until last year. That drive to be the best is still there, but someone else's is stronger.

Simply put: Milan was hungriest because they have much more to prove. I was not at all surprised when I saw the scoreline and for someone to lose their entire excitement for this season of this game is simply ridiculous.
I completely get & agree with your assessment and points (and the analogy, too) but it raises me concerns about this team then, are we sure it's just because of this specific friendly or there actually are players in our squad who aren't up to the fight anymore? Do we really rely on players who have a lack of desire to fight? Do they already feel they won it all and don't need to work harder for anything else?

I'm not discussing their qualities or whether they're wrong to have their reasons to get complacent, but if that will be the case maybe we'll have to address completely different issues rather than just a lack of World Class players in our roster?
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Old 22-07-2017, 22:27   #167
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I completely get & agree with your assessment and points (and the analogy, too) but it raises me concerns about this team then, are we sure it's just because of this specific friendly or there actually are players in our squad who aren't up to the fight anymore? Do we really rely on players who have a lack of desire to fight? Do they already feel they won it all and don't need to work harder for anything else?

I'm not discussing their qualities or whether they're wrong to have their reasons to get complacent, but if that will be the case maybe we'll have to address completely different issues rather than just a lack of World Class players in our roster?
Exactly my thoughts. We have the squad and we have the ability. At this point our failure has to do with other factors, and we absolutely have control over some of them. Whether Carlo is up for the job is another question entirely.

For what it's worth, I loathed Pep in 2012 and said some bad things about him. I'm feeling pretty similar about Ancelotti right about now, so let's hope history repeats itself
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Old 22-07-2017, 22:41   #168
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of course!!! anyone who WATCHED the game would lose some excitement.

losing 4-0 against their B team who had less time of preparation is depressing especially considering how much interested our players were. how much they fought for every ball and ran throughout the 90 minutes, and yet we lost 4-0 and couldn't even manage to score a goal.

one of the main objectives of these pre-season matches is to get fans excited about the upcoming season. seeing how good the new signings are and how much better the team became from last season. and most importantly, how the team fixed last year problems.

seeing the team being the same clueless team against organized defense just gives a bad omen.

it's ridiculous to keep seeing the same thing over and over again and keep being naively hopeful.

is it the end of the world?no far from it...but this game insert doubt in you and drains your excitement. people who say it's not a big deal are the people who didn't watch the game. the game was a reminder that it's not all sunny paradise in old bavaria, the team and the coach has still a long way to go if they want to win the CL this season.

the people who watched the game are frustrated and rightfully so, cause we have already seen this same exact game too many times.

why me stating that i'm less excited now about the new season would bother anyone?yes, after watching the game i'm less excited, that is simply how i feel. do you think i don't want to be as excited as i was 4 days ago?

Last edited by roosoo2; 22-07-2017 at 22:46.
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Old 22-07-2017, 22:45   #169
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Exactly my thoughts. We have the squad and we have the ability. At this point our failure has to do with other factors, and we absolutely have control over some of them. Whether Carlo is up for the job is another question entirely.

For what it's worth, I loathed Pep in 2012 and said some bad things about him. I'm feeling pretty similar about Ancelotti right about now, so let's hope history repeats itself
At this stage I guess that yes, remains to be seen whether Carlo will be able to convey some enthusiasm in the environment and fire them up for good. They literally have all the reasons to do so and prove themselves they can achieve even more than they already have, so I hope you'll be right!
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Old 22-07-2017, 22:49   #170
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Exactly my thoughts. We have the squad and we have the ability. At this point our failure has to do with other factors, and we absolutely have control over some of them. Whether Carlo is up for the job is another question entirely.

For what it's worth, I loathed Pep in 2012 and said some bad things about him. I'm feeling pretty similar about Ancelotti right about now, so let's hope history repeats itself
did you mean heynckes or 2014?
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Old 22-07-2017, 22:51   #171
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of course!!! anyone who WATCHED the game would lose some excitement.

losing 4-0 against their B team who had less time of preparation is depressing especially considering how much interested our players were. how much they fought for every ball and ran throughout the 90 minutes, and yet we lost 4-0 and couldn't even manage to score a goal.

one of the main objectives of these pre-season matches is to get fans excited about the upcoming season. seeing how good the new signings are and how much better the team became from last season. and most importantly, how the team fixed last year problems.

seeing the team being the same clueless team against organized defense just gives a bad omen.

it's ridiculous to keep seeing the same thing over and over again and keep being naively hopeful.

is it the end of the world?no far from it...but this game insert doubt in you and drains your excitement. people who say it's not a big deal are the people who didn't watch the game. the game was a reminder that it's not all sunny paradise in old bavaria, the team and the coach has still a long way to go if they want to win the CL this season.

the people who watched the game are frustrated and rightfully so, cause we have already seen this same exact game too many times.

why me stating that i'm less excited now about the new season would bother anyone?yes, after watching the game i'm less excited, that is simply how i feel. do you think i don't want to be as excited as i was 4 days ago?
I haven't watched the game and I share your same sentiments about it - however my two cents are: they entered the pitch pretty convinced they already had it in the bag, they weren't really up to it and as Milan went 2 nil up they started playing but it's too hard to enter full-focus mode in the middle of the match and this didn't bring anything good. Did I go too far from that?
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Old 22-07-2017, 23:03   #172
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i don't agree, vidal is immense destroyer.

anyways, as a guy who followed/follows lyon and tolisso, was my assessment regarding tolisso ball distribution game and his long-pass ability off?

that was one of things that caught my attention when i watched his highlights and his game against arsenal, but i don't know how truly his highlights represent his true abilities and how much misleading are those highlights.
No, your assessment was correct. His long passes and distribution of the ball are pretty solid, and so is his shot. While he can defend relatively well, there's still room for improvement, but for a (non-defensive) central midfielder, he defends pretty well already. He likes to rush up the field a lot, though, and also to take long shots. He's played in numerous different positions throughout his earlier years, from right-back to centre-back to striker if I remember right, so that's where his versatility comes from. Tolisso still has lots of unfulfilled potential though, so he's by no means yet a ready product. If he manages to become the player many expect, myself included, he'll be one of the most complete midfielders around in the future.
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Old 22-07-2017, 23:22   #173
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I haven't watched the game and I share your same sentiments about it - however my two cents are: they entered the pitch pretty convinced they already had it in the bag, they weren't really up to it and as Milan went 2 nil up they started playing but it's too hard to enter full-focus mode in the middle of the match and this didn't bring anything good. Did I go too far from that?
do you remember what morata did to bayern two years ago at munich? exactly that but niang instead of morata this time.

do you remember the first 20 minutes of barca bayern(2015) or the madrid bayern game(2014)? exactly that but milan instead of the spanish teams.

bayern for some reason can't deal with players with pace. milan looked super dangerous every time they passed the half line.

offensively:

do you remember the lewa miss from a muller pass in the first half against barca in 2015? exactly the same but this time it was ribery who gave the pass.

do you remember the last 4 encounters against the spanish teams in the CL?

imagine just that. having much more possession yet barely creating anything, looking lost and clueless in attack. and when we finally create a decent chance, we somehow find a way to screw it.

i think you got the idea ...

so to answer you question:-

yes, we started the game very energized, coman and ribery running at the flanks, creating semi-chances but nothing too crazy. while milan barely creating anything at the start, but when they did, it was almost a goal. and by their second or third attack, they managed to score. and from then onward, the horror show or should i say the niang show began. we kept pushing forward and they kept counter-attacking and scoring, and for some reason our players couldn't for the love of god get the ball off of niang's feet.

anyways after saying all that, i hope that the right conclusions will be drawn out of this game.

Last edited by roosoo2; 22-07-2017 at 23:40.
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Old 23-07-2017, 00:47   #174
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did you mean heynckes or 2014?
Jupp of course, sorry for the confusion.

I thought Jupp was stupid and stubborn and I thought we'd end up sacking him early in his second season. I'm noticing parallels between my feelings toward Jupp then and my feelings toward Ancelotti now.

Also I agree with what you wrote, but I think it's a little more tempered than what you originally expressed. You are absolutely right to be disappointed, but I think anyone with a bit of common sense (yourself included!) should be able to find within themselves the perspective to know that this is just a pre-season wake-up call. Let's hope that's all this is, because if you're right and this IS emblematic of how we're going to play in the upcoming season...then I'll be very disappointed too.

As for now, let's try to take this loss in context and hope our players learn from it. It's entirely possible ("likely" is another issue altogether) for this loss to actually end up being a good thing for us, showing us what real hunger looks like before we have a chance to really fuck it all up too far in an actual competition
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Old 23-07-2017, 01:01   #175
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Jupp of course, sorry for the confusion.

I thought Jupp was stupid and stubborn and I thought we'd end up sacking him early in his second season. I'm noticing parallels between my feelings toward Jupp then and my feelings toward Ancelotti now.

Also I agree with what you wrote, but I think it's a little more tempered than what you originally expressed. You are absolutely right to be disappointed, but I think anyone with a bit of common sense (yourself included!) should be able to find within themselves the perspective to know that this is just a pre-season wake-up call. Let's hope that's all this is, because if you're right and this IS emblematic of how we're going to play in the upcoming season...then I'll be very disappointed too.

As for now, let's try to take this loss in context and hope our players learn from it. It's entirely possible ("likely" is another issue altogether) for this loss to actually end up being a good thing for us, showing us what real hunger looks like before we have a chance to really fuck it all up too far in an actual competition
Fully agreed.

Actually losses like these can be healthy at times.
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Old 23-07-2017, 01:14   #176
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Originally Posted by roosoo2 View Post
do you remember what morata did to bayern two years ago at munich? exactly that but niang instead of morata this time.

do you remember the first 20 minutes of barca bayern(2015) or the madrid bayern game(2014)? exactly that but milan instead of the spanish teams.

bayern for some reason can't deal with players with pace. milan looked super dangerous every time they passed the half line.

offensively:

do you remember the lewa miss from a muller pass in the first half against barca in 2015? exactly the same but this time it was ribery who gave the pass.

do you remember the last 4 encounters against the spanish teams in the CL?

imagine just that. having much more possession yet barely creating anything, looking lost and clueless in attack. and when we finally create a decent chance, we somehow find a way to screw it.

i think you got the idea ...

so to answer you question:-

yes, we started the game very energized, coman and ribery running at the flanks, creating semi-chances but nothing too crazy. while milan barely creating anything at the start, but when they did, it was almost a goal. and by their second or third attack, they managed to score. and from then onward, the horror show or should i say the niang show began. we kept pushing forward and they kept counter-attacking and scoring, and for some reason our players couldn't for the love of god get the ball off of niang's feet.

anyways after saying all that, i hope that the right conclusions will be drawn out of this game.
Thank you for you resume, I do remember all the episodes you mentioned and I have to say I kinda figured out it went like that and it was sad to hear it was the same old story and that we didn't really try to go for anything new tactically speaking.

Carlo said many times that the first phase of the season is where you can commit mistakes - many teams that eventually went on winning the CL actually had some crappy first halves of season. I just hoped we'd see something different.

It's just really sad to see Bayern suffering such a defeat and even more to think it was the case against an Italian team.

However, the pre-season matches is just way too early to give up on any hopes just yet.

Just like you, I hope this will be a noteworthy lesson for the players and the coach and that we will be there when it will really matter.
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Old 23-07-2017, 01:24   #177
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Jupp of course
FYI, I'm not pretending that I'm not overreacting..I know I'm overreacting and I know the moment the season starts and James scores his first goal I will forget all about the pre-season. And btw I agree with you totally...

Its only natural to overreact a bit after a game like this. It doesn't matter how you look at it or how pointless the match was, it has to sting a bit.
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Old 23-07-2017, 01:30   #178
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FYI, I'm not pretending that I'm not overreacting..I know I'm overreacting and I know the moment the season starts and James scores his first goal I will forget all about the pre-season. And btw I agree with you totally...

Its only natural to overreact a bit after a game like this. It doesn't matter how you look at it or how pointless the match was, it has to sting a bit.
Haha this hits home, I do the same thing sometimes. It's fine to overreact as long as you know you're doing it
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Old 23-07-2017, 01:38   #179
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Thank you for you resume, I do remember all the episodes you mentioned and I have to say I kinda figured out it went like that and it was sad to hear it was the same old story and that we didn't really try to go for anything new tactically speaking.

Carlo said many times that the first phase of the season is where you can commit mistakes - many teams that eventually went on winning the CL actually had some crappy first halves of season. I just hoped we'd see something different.

It's just really sad to see Bayern suffering such a defeat and even more to think it was the case against an Italian team.

However, the pre-season matches is just way too early to give up on any hopes just yet.

Just like you, I hope this will be a noteworthy lesson for the players and the coach and that we will be there when it will really matter.
The other annoying part was that Carlo didn't even experiment, didn't field the young lads...one of the advantages to these pre-season games is giving the coach the opportunity to experiment with the team,with young players, and different formations, without severe ramifications. It let's you know what sticks and what doesn't.

He did non of that, he fielded the strongest team available, as he prioritized the win over giving the young players a chance and over the experimentation. Which is why this defeat is so embarrassing.
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Old 23-07-2017, 01:49   #180
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The other annoying part was that Carlo didn't even experiment, didn't field the young lads...one of the advantages to these pre-season games is giving the coach the opportunity to experiment with the team,with young players, and different formations, without severe ramifications. It let's you know what sticks and what doesn't.

He did non of that, he fielded the strongest team available, as he prioritized the win over giving the young players a chance and over the experimentation. Which is why this defeat is so embarrassing.

Yeah, it literally leaves us with no excuses. It's really not fun to be zapping on tv here and everyone's talking about this match.

It is fun though, I was a big fan of 4-2-3-1 and absolutely wanted us to deploy that line-up last year and now I'm upset 'cause we apparently stick to it haha

This Asian tour must not exactly be a success for our brand thus far. I guess we won't be attracting that many fans like that haha
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